I was talking to my director yesterday, and she was telling me how there's a chance that the battery could be in the pit. My initial reaction was that I didn't want it, since I prefer being out on the field. There's nothing wrong w/ the pit, it's just my opinion. However, the more I thought about it, since we only have 50 people and we have the world's worst pit, it makes some sense, due to all our better players are in the battery, the vast majority of our mallet players are in the battery, and we could do some really cool stuff with ten people and triple the experience. So my question is, how do you feel about a battery playing in the pit, regardless of size, experience, etc?

I'm not asking what I should do, just your opinion on it in general.

I'm not a big fan of it, but sometimes it's necessary. My opinion is that a battery ought to have at least 5 or so people to be fielded, but some directors will field one with only 3 or 4. I also think there ought to be at least like 3 people in the pit to make it worth having one. Anyway if you have a fielded battery and a regular pit, how many people would probably be in each?

I think if the only reason for eliminating the battery is to help the pit improve, then a better solution would just be to either work more with the pit or to shuffle some people around. But not knowing the in's and out's of your program, that's just my opinion.

Kevin is the guy to talk to about this question.

~ Jen

first of all if there is no battery there is no groove out there on the field.
the battery is what keeps the WHOLE band together Im in pit so i should know that.If your director is going in that direction then whoa how long has she or he has been around marching bands or music in that aspect.Whoa thats all i have got to say about that.

good luck with that

Well, jddrum didn't exactly say they wouldn't still be playing battery drums. Although it would look funny to see a person with a snare on, playing a marimba part with the drum cocked over to their side.

I've seen bands that had no battery drums at all, and they were a well rounded section, but their sound, as far as the music itself, was too light. We'll have battery drums in the pit, so this way someone could play snare on one part of a song and maybe move over to marimba for another part. We'd put the drums on stands so everyone could move around. This ins't final; it's just a possibility, though. There's still a good chance that we'll be out on the field.

I'm starting to think that I should've made this a poll, since I just want to know if anyone prefers the battery in the pit (for band, definately not for corps). After all, it's a great way for less experienced lines to focus more on their playing.

In my experiences with smaller bands, I've seen many smaller bands go out with the entire section being in the pit and seen it work very nicely. I also agree that in order to really have a drumline, you need to have at least 5 people (but I don't know if numbers are any of the director's reasoning for this). As far as "loosing the groove", if you have the right equipment and teach the kids to play, a pit an groove very well if they have some good latin percussion equipment to use. Bottom line, if your director does go this route, don't get discouraged. The advantage not marching has is that you get to spend more time working and cleaning music which is always a plus. <img src="/threads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-Rob

although the tone was a little condescending, chsgirl2 actually did make a good point --

the band is taught to listen back to the drums to get the pulse. if the drums are all in the front ensemble, the band has to change their listening drastically -- now, if they "lock in" to the beats being played by the drums, they will be phasing massively.

they have to change their listening/watching to listen back to other wind voices, which can be a difficult thing to do, especially in a high school situation.

b

The bands I have seen with a pitted battery have usually put the pit backfield (or sometimes on the side?) - that way the band can still listen back and lock in with the drums. Of course then you have trouble hearing the other instruments in the pit, so obviously that's not an ideal solution. Another reason I'm really not a fan of putting the drums in the pit.

~ Jen

There is actually a school in the area who's band has consistently been under 60 people....but REALLY friggin good. They "post" their percussion midfield. I'm talkin slap in the middle of the 50 yeard line. Some years it's been to the side like near the 40. Almost like an orchestral percussion pit. But the drill is centered around the percussion section. They usually use props for backdrops behind the percussion. Good for guard flag changes and stuff. But I tell ya, people underestimate this band because of their size. But their marching is clean and the music is awesome. So a posted percussion section can work

Some points people have made could work but with a lot of hard work.Ive seen pit in the middle of the field and towards the backfield and i talked to some of their players and they said that it was hard because they are used to listening back instead of always looking at the field commander. If i would be a director i would not recommend that choice because if you change something you could change many things.I have also seen the pit going to the battery and the battery going to the pit.It was in the BOA in Atlanta Cordova High School their drumline did that and it worked pretty good since it was only for 1/4 th of the show.All i can say is have a battery before having a pit. thats all i have to say about that.

Thank you, Forest.

Battery players in the pit, while I strongly dislike it, has worked for me in the past. Because I had so many people drop from the battery this year, for the benefit of the group I had to stick them in the pit. The judges liked it better too, so that helped. We wound up getting 5th in percussion out of 32.

One of the biggest things to watch out for when doing it is balance and blend. The battery people have to start listening instead of driving tempos and dynamics. It really is a big change.

As for placing the front ensemble anywhere on the field, I would not do it.

Well MAM I'm not saying I would do it. Of course our program is large enoug where I wouldn't have to post a percussion section. I fill up the battery first. Heck I"m hoping for next to have enough for a pit. DIdn't have one this year. I really want to add something to my percussion section. I've been recruting like a mad man at our middle school feeders to keep our percussionists in band and not quit. Plus I"m showin some WGI Scholastic pit sections to prove to them that pit CAN be fun. A lot of high school directors around here have nicknamed their pit "Percussionists In Training" Which I hate with a passion.

"percussionist in training" catchy but some people have been playing in the pit for 6 years also so its not really that necessarily.What you can do to recruit pit people is you can go to the middle schools and dont scare with the practice stuff tell them that they will enjoy the season so much if they join marching band.Most of the people at my school were quitting before the season started and they sure missed out on a lot of fun stuff we did.Tell them that the hard stuff comes first but it will pay for later fun stuff. You can tell them that they may go to a big contest outside of state or who knows maybe a parade in New York or somewhere else.

It's unfortunite that so many people think that that's all a pit is because they can be so much more....

Rob

"Percussionist in Training"?

God that would piss me off. Luckily my band director is a former Cadets pit member and our pit instructor arranges and teaches Bluecoats' pit so they are cool about it. I actually chose to be in pit as a freshman simply because my mallet skills were better than my drum skills (why is this reminding me of the Battle of the Sexes thread?). Anyway I would say there aren't really any more "percussionists in training" in the pit than there are in the drumline. And the ones that are there really haven't seemed to have hurt us since after we took the group 4 percussion trophy for the 3rd year at ACC's a bunch of people were commenting on how our pit "blew them away".

And people wonder why there is a negative view of the pit out there in the band world. Are corps pit members "Percussionists in Training" too?

~ Jen

i think one of the bigger mistakes a band director can make is going and getting an all green pit (only new people). sometimes it works out of course but a lot of times the kids get the idea that since they are all new it must be where they put the people who aren't good, so it must be for people who aren't good, and that when they get older/improve that they can "move-up" to the battery. it's always good to have older kids there to show the new kids what it can really be like. i mean kids usually gravitiate towards older kids who they look up to or think are cool or something. i mean, it's just like any other section, just a little more diversity in instruments.

i agree with indoorperc that you should have someone who is more experienced in pit so that way they know at least a little bit of what the pit is all about. The section leaders in my pit are mostly seniors who have been in pit since their freshman year or longer. If you bring a new group of people into the pit without them knowing what to do then how is the section leader picked at all. I say that there should always be someone who has been in pit for at least a year for the director to pick new people to join.

IF you didn't understand what I said...I want a pit next year. THe school I teach is only 2 years old. We've NEVER had a pit. Never had enough to even fill a pit...much less a full battery. So I sort of have no choice but to put people in the pit who have "no experience". THe band gradually building in numbers. Half of my line has no experience so I'm forced to build from the bottom. There are a couple of clarinet players right now who want to convert to mallets next year who are juniors but they are my only source of upperclassment to put in the pit. IF I was blessed with a large percussion program then I wouldn't have this problem. I tell my students to audition on whatever they feel comfortable with. Of course I give suggestions based on their abilities. Everybody's utopian way of thinking about what's perfect and isn't doesn't work in my situation. I've started this program from the beginning which I'm proud of. I have summer reharsals for this particular reason and I give private lessons to the middle schoolers. So I appreciate all your suggestions on what members a pit should and shouldn't have. But like I said, I'm forced to build from the bottom.

i never said that this is what you should or shouldn't do. i was just speaking in general terms. my point was that generally kids come in as freshmen, or see it as middle schoolers and probably see some senior-age kid doing what seems like really cool stuff. i mean, that's how a lot of sections get lopsided or graduation comes around and you're out an entire section. i just mean that in a "perfect" situation it would be a good idea to spread the talent then say put them all on snare you know? also if new kids come in who are pretty good themselves, they'll judge where they think they should be in a year or two on where the talent is now (for kids who get to pick where to audition that is...) instead of for example thinking 'man the tenors/snares/pit/cymbals/basses really suck right now, i wanna be in that section because i could bring some good talent to it...." etc.... not that they would or should think that, just an example ya know

The problem with us is that we don't have much choices for balancing it. We don't have too many people come in each year, and the music program is not too good in the first place since my school is very athletic and has little emphasis on the arts. We don't have any mallet instruction at all, the only people who do it are self-taught. Like jmacdrums, we have to build from the bottom, we get whatever we get and we can't complain. When it comes to battery, many people come, start on bass, and then want to jump to tenors within ten minutes. Everyone (and when I say everyone, I mean everyone) thinks that tenors are the best and only the best get to play them. They don't realize the skill that can go into a bass drum. Therefore, there's everyone on snare and tenors, freshmen on bass drum, and very few people in the pit.

So, if we do this whole battery in the pit idea, we can have people trade, like start the show on snare, then go to mallets and finish up on bass (one person playing four or five) since you're not marching them). Then we can have some balance, and give easier tenor parts to not as good people and give harder parts to better players.

That is a great place to be by building from the bottom and doing summer rehersals and also giving private lessons on top of that. You should be really proud of the program that you're doing in that band. Starting a program is a great experience for the drumline director. That is one of the toughest things to do in marching band, to put a section together and get them to play together.By the way if you are in a rural area that is great things you are doing.

KEEP IT UP!!!!

there was <s>alot</s> [color:"red"]a lot</font> to read here and i was anxious to post...so here i go...

battery int he pit can and will work...

however, if you have enough for a minimal line (snare, tenor, 3 basses), by all means, do it. tenors arent even necesary allt he time..there are many choices you have...

anyways, battery in the pit..
i played battery in the pit for 2 years.. the basses aere set up like timpini on a little rack, the tenors ..well, they were cranked concert toms(quads), and the snare was on a normal concert stand. snare and tenor go hand in hand, and it opened oppurtunity for <s>alot</s> [color:"red"]a lot</font> of visual since we werent occupied with our drill sets...

your answer is yes... when i was in the pit, i felt more musical about things... i guess because having a marimba near you, its a very emotional instrument and you just kinda feel like you have to play very musical and match the emotion or what not...
oh yes, the first year we had battery in the pit, there were 3 battery players. during the 'ballad' i went over to play some suspended cymbal and triangle and stuff, no big deal. oh yea, we didnt have a percussion instructor that year at all, and the head band director was busy with the band...so we were self motivated and tried to make us the best we possibly could be, and we were kickin'. we got 5 straight trophies, and a climaxed score of 19.0 out of 20.

so, it can work, and it will work, as long as you dont do anything stupid and put like 3 snares in the pit for the whole show...(cuz if you have 3 snares...you might as well march or something...)

the problem with battery in the pit is having to listen back to someone and it may not be the same person everytime. Think about this if the drummers are in the front who are the woodwinds and brass going to listen to. Since they march that would put a big conflict around the field. Sometimes the woodwinds could be in the back and it would be out of tempo some bands tend to do that. My band keeps a steady tempo with the drumline. Drumline forces the tempo. I'm not saying that the battery in the pit wouldn't work. I'm just saying that the band as a whole will have to work harder than usual.

This isn't a decision I really get to make. What it comes down to is how many people we have in the battery. If we have five, there's about a 50/50 shot at marching. Anything less, we're in the pit. Anything more, we're on the field.

I know there's pros and cons of each, but you just have to decide on which cons can be fixed easily. The woodwinds and brass will probably be able to get used to it easily, since we're not in the back too much when we have marched. Think of it like this. Imagine the battery on the field and the drill requires them to be in front of everybody, and it's not like there's a percussion feature or anything like that. They're listening to what's in front of them, which hasn't been a big problem. Besides, if you throw the high woodwinds in the back and they're out of tempo, who'd notice? You can't hear them in the first place.

But anyways, the drums would still force the tempo, but they would just be stationary. If you think about it, it could be easier on them because they're always listening for that one area, as opposed to almost anywhere.

The horns should not be listening at all. Because of staging on the field, each player's listening environment is contantly changing, and that will cause a lot of phasing problems. They should be following the drum major and making adjustments based on their distance from the front sideline. The only people listening should be the pit (and only then if they are in the front and center of the sideline,) because they need to match up with the sound coming from the hornline, otherwise they will always sound ahead of the beat, which is bad.

The only people that should need to change their listening habits are those in the battery who are now grounded in the pit. They are used to setting the beat, so having to listen for the beat is a big change for them. They need to not only listen for timing but also for dynamics. A forte from the back of the field is not the same as a forte at the front of the field.

That was the hardest part for my kids this year because we, like Jddrum, did not have enough members in the line to keep them on the field. It took them a couple weeks, but they adjusted.

drummergrl has a good point also percussionist in training are really the people that are in middle school lines or such.Pit members are as much skilled as the drummers or tenors or basses are in the drumline. Drum corps pit member do work their butts off to perform a good show.Pit members in drum corps are Percussionists in performance. If that makes any sense on your senses.

ummm... Ya we got a tenor player in the pit right now... He kinda has trouble with the whole get the right notes thing wich really bugs me. But he's about to move back to tenor and we're getting a new girl in for xylos and well... she kinda sucks too. I'm not a big fan of it but if you really gotta do it then I guess it'll work.

Battery in the pit is good only in moderation. During our show this year the battery came in to the pit for the ballad to play cymbals since our parts were so engaging it was impossible for us to play them. Then at the start of the closer they marched out after the two measure fanfare into the drum solo. It made a really cool effect. In fact, you might be able to see part of it here. http://www.mtsu.edu/~coc/mcgavock.mov

Just wanted to update everyone. We have enough people to march a drumline (hence the new sig), so I'm happy we're doing that. My only problem is that we now won't be bringing out timpani. Oh well.

I have no problem with the battery being in the pit, but if you have a large enough pit I don't think it's really necessary. At my school pit is open to anybody that doesn't wan't to march. They just have to have piano experience so they can relate that to the mallet instruments. We have a huge pit, about 10 people. And our drumline is really big too, 13 people. But anyway congrats on being section leader.

Here's my little theory on battery in the pit, pit only, and battery only percussion sections. First, it depends on the show. I've been in a show that's been all pit, and I've taught a show that's been all pit. In both cases, it worked just fine. While you miss the 'pop' and rhythmn on the field, it is easy replaced by a more orchestral approach. Its not the end of the world. One easy way to make up for the lack of battery is to put more pit players on drums and auxillary percussion instruments (your less apt mallet players). The addition of multiple concert basses, concert toms, and snare drums more than make up for the lack of 'pop' on the field.
Battery Only: You lose the effect and runs that a pit can provide. Especially miss Timpani and Marimba. However, in a non-competitive band with 10 or so kids, I'd drop the pit like a bad habit.
Battery in the Pit: Not a fan. I'd choose one of the other two options first. Too loud right up front and it ruins most of the effect of marching percussion instruments.

Well, that's my $.02

My HS tried that a couple times for a few reasons. One, the music(balled) didn't call for battery parts on the field. Two because Our small pit wasn't generating ebough, or the level of sound our director wanted. And because most of our experianced mallet players were in the DL, all of us went to the pit did some keyboard work. It wasn't that bad, i actually had some fun.

ny perc. instr. is thinking about doing something like that. Which weve never done b4. I think it would be too much work to go from marching, play something in pit, then march again...I dont think id be a fan of it either...we might so it, might not...

Come on... free your mind. If it doesn't make sense to leave the drumline out on the field then don't. There is a lot that can happen for music effect with more percussionists on the sideline. Plus, it will be far more intersting for you than just tacet marching through a ballad. (If it is the ballad that you are going to the pit.)

We have moved the line in and out for the last two years, and we have loved the results that we can get. This year, we are only going to have a full batterie for 2 1/2 of the 5 sections of music. The rest of the time, we will be adding stationary percussion effects with taikos, big trio bass drum set ups, jazz rides and crashes, and even a gamelan type ensemble. You can't do that stuff just marching around on the field playing the same old stuff.

Maybe you should trust the judgement of your instructor and stop second guessing his decisions? I think he knows what he is doing.

You know the thing with having people in the pit from the battery is that they think is not a lot of work. Sorry drummers out there but it is hard to do some of the stuff we do during a show.In my pit this year we have 10 people and only 3 of us are older members.Maybe sometimes you should give battery members a chance to prove they can do it. Sometimes they prove to you that they are not set for pit.So maybe you guys should take a look at the potential of the player not just how bad he/she plays or how good he/she plays. Look at the character of the person and try to get them interested into being in pit. Look for similarities in them. Sometimes people dont like to be in the pit because they feel left out.

man our show this year is gonna be so freakin awesome. the second movement is gonna feature the woodwinds, so the battery is comin off tha field and make a huge frontline ensemble. its gonna be so great. its gonna help me beef up my mallets and i'll be on my way to bein a "true" percussionist.

without battery you have no band...

i think it would be a great experience, if u want to be a percussionist that is. if ur a drummer, its all good, but take into consideration that there is so much more to percussion than just drums. yeah, i play snare-n-all, but seein that this is my senior year, i kinda wish i coulda played in the frontline for at least one movement. preferably our second movement which features the winds and guard. but oh well. i think theres nuthin wrong wit battery bein in the frontline.

Living a very sheltered life, aren't you? Did you come to this groundbreaking theory after spending years and years in the trenches, or were you just sitting on the pot one day and saw it scratched into the door of the stall?

Thou dost not knoweth what thou art speaking of.

It's true that the battery is the metranome of the band but I still wish that while I was in the band that I could of played in the pit once, just to get the experience. That's why during concert season all I wanted to play was malleted instruments. I say if you want to just play drums go for it, but I think that the band can function without a drumline because I've seen some schools only have a pit, but hey your opinion is your opinion.

This year some of our battery players are coming to the pit during the ballad to play. Of course this was their choice since our director told them if they wanted to do that. The other people in the pit are going to play Toys or play their usual marimba or vibes or xylo. I think is cool to have battery in the pit. Maybe they won't be true percussionist yet but one step closer to it.

Our school was brand new last year. We didn't have enough drummers for pit and battery, so we fused them, making a drum "core" (as we called it) we switched off from mallets and drums and 1 person played all 4 bassdrums. The BDs were on their sides and proped up and he played them like a large set of quads. There was a Quad player, who switched to auxileries sometimes, and a set of quads on a stand for a snare player, there were two snares on carriers but were taken on and off for different songs. This worked very well. We got All Superiors at one competiotion and Best In Class at another. So, these are just some suggestions of how to work with a Pit/Battery (Core).




1998-2001 Middle school concert Band
2001-2002 WHHS 1st Bass Marching, Mallets during Concert
2002-2003 FBHS Drum Capt Pit(grrr) Marching, Everything during Concert
2003-Now FBHS Drum Capt Quints Marching, Dunno not concert season yet!

ok...now i have a BIG problem about pitted battery. this weekend i went to TOB championships and watched the group one bands (up to 35 musicians). if you have a 8-10 person pit, with clearly some are just battery kids, then march them! i saw many groups with large pits that had marching snares (one even had 3 marching snares, 2 tenors and 4 basses on a pvc rack, plus keyboards and aux.). to me, a minimum line would be 5 people (snare, tenor, 3 bass), or 4 if you throw a tenor part in the pit (and i dont mean someone playing a set of tenors in the pit...because then they should be marching them. i mean adapting the tenor voice to the pit's equipment(concert toms, other melodic drums).

i dont know...i just think <s>alot</s> [color:"red"]a lot</font> of people are taking the easy way out in pitting their drumline in the pit. I saw way too many large pits with no line on the field. 5 person drumline, the rest pit. just deal with the cards you've been dealt! sheez...people seem to be making some bad decisions.

when we pitted the battery, there were 6 people in the percussion section as a whole. if you have a pit of 8 or more...march some kids and deal with a smaller pit.

i dunno..the battery [i feel] really adds something special to the show. without it, its a lot less dramatic. i know that the snares often are the ones who add the accents to the hornline when they'e playing too loud/fast to be able to do it themselves-so its written into the drumline parts to do it for them. who plays the cadences in a pitted drumline? who does those awesome visuals if there aren't any marching snares? crabbing will become a mere myth instead of a regimented way of marching, especially in a school away from any drum corps. and speaking of drum corps, who can try out for marching bass when they've only played them on their sides, four in a row? i can't imagine a band without a drumline. to me, it is unfathomable.

in our show we have a ballad and that's when the battery comes into the pit. in some ways it's good, cause it improves the overall sounds of the pit, but in other ways it's bad, cause hey, i just prefer being out on the field, having been in pit my first season and now battery this season.