So last week the BD at the school I instruct at informed me that a parent is upset with me. His son has developed CT or " Snare elbow" from learning traditional grip (7th grader). It was discussed between the BD and the Father that he would like to see matched grip taught to the up and coming drummers. Ha! Sorry....

Now in this fathers 2 year carrier in high school as a snare drummer, they used matched and no one ever had problems with CT. Well so what! Sorry.....
So now it is being tabled that we switch grip, ha! As you can see I have no love for matched griped snare drummers. It's an abomniation!!!!

Hey I'm open minded to most any thing but this dog won't hunt! I've read through our's and other sites debate on witch is better Trad or matched. Now I havent read or heard any good reason(s) for switching, other than the BD and Instructor are....

Never mind, ok so here it is... Let me here your reasons why I should Change the next 12 year reign at this school, that's how long I have this percussion department.

Besides it too quite around here, so talk it up I'm waiting for any good reason why I should change. Good luck!

You should change because the nightmare that the parents can create for you is not worth it. Keep your sanity and keep the parents on your side and just play matched.

In all the years I've been instructing, I've never had a student develop carpal tunnel syndrome from playing. Not with traditional grip or any other grip. If one player gets injured, it's an anomaly, not a trend. I've known far more people to get hurt from marching than playing. Should we stop doing that, too?

And while I haven't taught at the middle school level in a number of years, I have been around plenty of competitive middle school groups -- many of which use traditional grip. There are seven middle schools in my alma mater's circuit that field competitive winter percussion units and at least four of them play traditional grip. Springstowne Middle School is one example.

Of course, this is completely separate from the pedagogical discussion about whether or not to teach traditional grip to middle schoolers. I'd be more likely to side with your band director on those grounds than for one isolated instance of carpal tunnel.

If this particular parent wants his/her child to play matched grip and you don't want to change the line's technique, perhaps the student could play tenors?

Disclaimer for sake of total disclosure: I have known a few guys who developed repetitive stress injuries from playing, but they were all drum corps players who played 10+ hours per day on Falam heads. Very different circumstances.

I just wanted to add that I don't think you should have to switch or should switch I was just stating why it's in your best interest to do so.

Well DF, because of the parents is not something I worry about. Parents can be delt with, tactfully and respectfully. I do not fear parents.....

Good point SD, but one case of CT does not change my mind. For myself only 3 kids have developed CT, two from when k-flams came out in 89 and this one. In mine and the kids defence, the father has the 7th grader practicing on a sFz with a hybrid head. This is the cause of the CT, as I explained to the BD and the father that this is a bad idea for the student.

A type of grip does not give CT. Only constant playing and I'll add improper practice causes CT.

As too teaching trad grip to middle schoolers, this also is a good discussion but when do you teach trad? 7th or 8th grade? As soon as they pick up sticks. All three of my sons 13,12,11 all can play trad grip, French, German, and American grips. Granted they do as well as their little hands and mind can, but any drummer that comes through my line knows all grips.

As for instructors and BD's, are we not supposed to create Percussion artists? There is more than drumlines involved here...

There is so much more to percussion than drumlines, which is a valid reason some instructors choose NOT to use traditional grip. For the most part, traditional grip is a niche technique for marching snare drum and jazz drum set. Matched grips are also accepted technique in these idioms and pretty much everything else. Students can spend more time on mastery and application using a single grip instead of spending time learning different ones.

Not that I'm trying to advocate one way or the other. Just pointing out the other side of the argument.

I will concede to this point, I can not give a viable reason for not to switch. That being said, I have heard that matched it is more efficient way to play. With the aspect of snare lines not tilting their snare, it is not necessary to use traditional grip. Again not good enough.

In the past when I have met other instructors that only use matched grip, their only reason is that it is to hard to teach traditional grip. If that is so and I can understand that most BDs are not percussion grads and do not have access to a line instructor so yes matched is easier. Lazier if you ask me!

I only have few hundred years to stand on a " Tradional grip" being only tradition. And yes trad is very complicated, one day I hope to master it, ha. But how many (any) 1st place titles were won with matched? We see how far SCV went with matched, not far. If matched grip is so much better then why docent Scotty boy make the Blue Devils change.

The thing is, matched grip is simply the superior grip. Traditional grip was invented out of necessity. Matched grip will inherently make your students' hands more even, and it transfers over to much of the rest of the percussion family. While traditional grip does have more visual impact (it is a more aggressive stance, with your hand slightly higher and farther forward), it isn't worth cheating middle schoolers out of learning a more fundamental technique that will allow them to play more musically in all areas of percussion.

I think the question isn't why to switch, but why play traditional in the first place?

And as far as why the DCI lines don't change, while it's partially because of the visual aspect I mentioned, a big part of it is that middle and high school lines are too stubborn to give up on outdated grips which means that all of the snare players qualified to play on these lines are playing them in traditional grip. It doesn't make it better; it seems to me like people are just clinging to tradition for its own sake.

Well as far as matched being superior, ha! Sorry.. But all you have pointed out was that it's a visual aspect, so as a mallet man I can see why you would think that way. I don't mean to be rude but we are talking about snare drummers, again any instructor who refuses to imploy traditional grip usually can play it, or they were looking for a easy job.

Now talking with a sports therapist if I understood correctly the use of trad grip uses less muscles than matched, there for the left hand is works less than the right. If I remember right, hey any med students out there? Let's here from you all.

Oh also. Maybe you missed my statement that any and all of my drummers, learn every grip. And no I do not teach mallets, we have a dci front end tech.
My kids lack for nothing, 9 of them have percussion degrees and as of yet 16 of my kids have marched DCI, so my traditional grip teachings must be working some how.

Tom Aungst and Bret Kuhn can obviously play and teach traditional grip, but they've both chosen to use matched grip with their high school lines. With great success, too, both musically and competitively.

Murray Gusseck, even though he didn't spend his drum corps career playing traditional, is an incredibly smart dude and made this observation: The goal is to get the same sound quality from both hands, right? The most logical way to get the same sound out of each hand is to use the same approach for each hand.

Using matched grip isn't a cop-out. There are some pretty sound logical and pedagogical reasons to use matched grip. Personally, I don't care what grip a line uses if they play well.

I want to put this up front, regardless of what I think or feel about the grip issue, the choice on to switch or not is the BDs say so. I have made my case and I will hear his choice after the holidays.

What ever the grip, I wil not change my mind on what think is better, I'm doing just fine with my program. What is best for the child is what matters not what's best for me.

Thanks for the in-put!

Good point, and these are people who I respect. And yes their programs are successful, but for ease of teaching is where I feel it is a cop out . I also want to say I ment band directors and high school line instructors that choose the easy way out.

Your point on the medical issues with using a type of grip is really the only factor that has any ground, the rest is just preference concernng grip. So let's hear from a snare drummer what's you view?
Also can any one that can explain to us the Pedialogical issues? This is what will change my mind. I'm glad SD won't let that issue leave the table cause this really is or will be the deciding factor.

Sir Flamalot, I don´t think ease of teaching is necessarily a bad thing, and I don´t believe that efficiency and going for what seems logical in a given context has anything to do with lazyness. If you decide to use matched grip for pedagogical reasons and "ease" of teaching, there are still infinite amounts of factors within musical performance that must be adressed, and for an instructor deciding to go with matched this could mean that he could get to those points sooner. One doesn´t teach matched because one has "made it" once the grip is taught, there are plenty of other things to perfect. Grip is just a very small part of it, and you could get to work on proper double stroke technique or any of the thousand other things that need work sooner. I don´t see the connection between lazyness and teaching a grip that would seem logical and efficient to percussionists that may already have some background with this grip.

Besides, we make practical choices based on the logic of what gives the best results all the time in our musical practice and lives in general. As a classical percussionist I would say that this is especially relevant when figuring out how to play an instrument that I haven´t seen before. Ease in this sense is more about making it work efficiently and not at all about being lazy - I just try to go with whatever seems the most logical.

A pedagogical advantage could be that your students may be able to use a lot of technical knowledge from being on the snare line if they pursue a music education later on, with concert snare, mallet instruments and timpani where one would normally use matched grip. Of course, as you say, it is advantageous to know all grips (that being said, "french, "german" and "american" grip are all different variations on matched grip with a couple of awkward angles thrown in). However I believe that there are so many other things to spend your time exploring that learning a grip that doesn´t seem logical in terms of transfer value to other instruments is time consuming and could be well spent on other things. A practical advantage from your point of view could be that you get more flexibility concerning who plays what on the drumline.

Sorry for the long post, I LOVE these topics!:) Looking forward to reading further opinions.

I like what you are saying but to eliminate traditional grip on the grounds it's out-dated and not so easy to learn is where I draw the line. I would hope to think that the majority choose a grip for the situation, then there are the, I'm sorry " the lazy" I will admit I'm a ole' schooler and very prejudice over grip, but I'm willing to hear a logical reason, but to do a way with it from the program, that is what's at stake at our school.

We have a very talented front-end Instructor that works with all the students. It's not like in my day where they tell you what to play and that's all you play. My son in away is better off than when I started. There is a trend going on here in my area where it's beginning to be a much more kinder and gentler drumline.

I can't speak for every one but all I hear on this subject of grip is traditional is over, no real good reason other than ease of learning. Only one person have I heard give a real good reason for the switch, all others are based on the dislike of us ole schoolers and lack of discipline to learn their craft. I will not disregard and stand by for those who what a quick results and points. I'm just saying, sorry for the soap box at the end..

Disclaimer; In no way am I claiming that any DLO members fit my disruption of what is happening, as explained.
Oh and no baby seals were hurt in the course of writing this post!!! I do not advocate the cold blooded murder of baby seals, I am a equal opportunity seal head smasher, I do not wish to offend the baby seal lover community. ( privet joke)

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Here's my two cents, for what it's worth.

From reading this thread I gathered that you teach a Middle School. Assuming that we are in 21st Century America, the Middle school feeds students into a specific school or schools for high school. Any percussionist involved in any level of the art needs to know matched, I mean it is the basic grip. That's the first grip taught at my High School drumline on day one of Drumline Clinic-tryout. Snares always spend some time learning it even though they use traditional. However, in my inexperienced opinion, you should teach whatever grip the high school(s) your band feeds into. If they use traditional, use that. If they used matched, use that. Plus, most, not all by any means, but most programs after high school use traditional grip.

As far as the kid getting CT, it's probably not even drumline related, and if it is it's caused by bad practice technique. I know a lot of us have been playing traditional for years and haven't had a CT problem.

Yes middle school/ Jr high same thing. No, I am not saying that I'm against match all together, let me clear this up. What is being discussed is taking traditional grip completely out of the program, I didn't say that up front because I wanted a non judgmental point of view. I wanted to hear a clear and logical reason to dismiss traditional all together. Just "because" is all I'm getting, except for here.

The only way I will switch is if there is some medical proof that I'm going to damage some Childs hands and arms or worse the student develops Distoinia.

And yes this is the 21st century America run by Morons and lazy, let's not rock the boat and work hard! Don't stress the kids out or make them sweat or we'll find a therapist to council you!!

My bad, I don't know if I worded it properly.

To me personally, it makes the most logical sense to teach whatever grip they would be using playing that instrument at the next level. Not only that, it's a prerequisite for percussion to know matched grip, so no matter what level they are at, they will be taught matched. Taking traditional out of a program completely, especially a program that has used it years and years prior and feeds into another level school that uses traditional (just assuming that, but I may be wrong) would be.. well, against tradition, and an errant case of CT that is not directly caused by the type of grip used should not change that, unless there is clear and specific medical evidence that would justify the contrary, and thus far I have not seen it.

But then, I'm just a senior in HS, so my words may mean nothing in context of program desicion making.

Just thought I'd mention Dartmouth HS and Marcus HS

I've actually been around a group that tried matched for a few weeks at the beginning of the season, then switched over to traditional because they liked it better and it sounded better with that group of kids. Also, at the same school a few years earlier, they did exactly the opposite. Perhaps it's a thing to consider which sounds better with that group of people? Sure, that may be less practical, but instead of being married to a certain style or grip, you could see what sounds better. To me, that provides an interesting way around fighting the leaker end-snare player who can't get his left hand to figure it out. Also, if the kids trying out for the snare line always practice with traditional grip and are used to it, nothing really has to change.

Good morning my Brothers! Today is a wonderful day, Bama trashed auburn and I received the call I have been waiting for.

First I want to thank every one for their input on this subject! Im glad we could have a grown-up discussion on the subject( maybe not by me ) any way thank you all.

Ok down to brass tacks, my boss the BD was looking in on this debate hoping that he would learn something, and he did . I got the call at half time yesterday and had a great talk about the grip and my future at this program I'm getting to reside over.

Traditional stays as the official grip of my line!! It seems the case I made was enough to make the choice. BUT! there are conditions...

Traditional will stay as the grip for my snare drummers, so long as I stay as Instructor. The BD said that so long as I can teach it the it can stay but when I leave it will probably change. Heck by then you will use the virtual drumline on your Yamaha MOTIF.

Then the rants you boasted and the like in your previous statements within this thread have become irrelevant. If the BD has the thought process that because of injuries and other situations that utilizing traditional grip is damaging the kids more than if you were to utilize a matched grip, then it is in his eyes that in the best interests of the students, matched grip is the way to go for the drumline as a whole. Thus, as you are a person working under and alongside said director you may wish to take that and adjust your teachings as needed.

Now if you were to offer lessons and tips on playing while utilizing traditional grip on the side so the students that wish to march DCI and continue into other facets of percussion have that extra knowledge, then by all means go for it as it helps expand the repertoire of the musician for said facets (Old Fife and Drum Corps, jazz ease of getting around the drums, so on and so forth)

Edit: I see I made my post about a month too late. Still, that should be in the back of any instructor's head.