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Ralph Hardimon and some others from the the 1992 Blue Knights drumline are RE CLAIMING what everyone calls "book reports" to their ORIGINAL NAME "SLIVZ" which was Ralph's nickname for BK's section leader that year, Paul Stivitts who discovered them, and wrote them....true story

"book reports" are lame, plagerized, and are OUT,

"Slivz are IN" R Hardimon

k then...

Thanks man, if you give me an email address I can send you the sheet of original hybrids form 92, Im new so I can't post any music yet....or I dont know how to or I'd post it

Thanks man, if you give me an email address I can send you the sheet of original hybrids form 92, Im new so I can't post any music yet....or I dont know how to or I'd post it

Thanks man, if you give me an email address I can send you the sheet of original hybrids form 92, Im new so I can't post any music yet....or I dont know how to or I'd post it

The guy I'm teching for right now was bass 3 at BK in 1992, I'll have to ask him about it. Cool little bit of drum corps history.

Tell Doug Maake Hubskadub says Hey...

Call him porkchop sometime... He'll love it...

So far we have Ralph Hardimon, Glen Crosby, Mike Jackson, Nick Angelis, Jeff Queen, Pete Sapadin, Walter powell, and Mike Macintosh all chiming in to support that Paul Stivitts was the originator of the "Stivididdle" or "SLIVS" back in 1992 at the Blue Knights. In fact, most of them have shared a story about when Paul shared his creation with them...

This is an epic conversation that shows that the brotherhood of DCI drummers is strong and honest and full of the best people this community has to offer. I am proud to be a member of it and lucky to have played with or known a lot of these great men.

Re-writing history to improve accuracy is always a good thing for our society and for future generations of drummers to come.

Now go do your SLIV grids... I don't wanna hear about no book reports...

Nope, I'm still gonna call them book reports. That's what they've been called since I learned about them 2 and a half years ago. Plus they sound cooler than "Slivs." I don't doubt you made them. But I'm callin' them book reports.

lol interesting.... Can we get PAS to verify this? :P

That was pretty arrogant, in my humble opinion at least. Assuming this is actually true, then this little "movement" really isn't about what you want, what you learned, or what you think is cooler. It's about paying respect and giving credit where it is due. Slivz have pretty much become a 'standard' as far as hybrid rudiments are concerned, and if Mr. Stivitts really did invent/discover the hybrid then by all means we, as a community, should respect him enough to call them slivz as it was originally intended.

I'm all for it. They're Slivz to me now.

Just a comment one the actual invention: at what point does throwing together a combination of non-hybrids become something new all together?
Did no one play the diddle-tap-flam-diddle before 1992? Does it even have to be gridable?
My perspective is this:
I'm still calling them book reports, for a number of reasons.
1)people know what they are, there is no regional vernacular for them.
2)they have been that way for what 15 years? I learned them as "book reports" in 1997.

On an unrelated note, is it also not a bit arrogant that a small group of people, however influential, thinks they can change the long standing habits of millions of percussionists around the world?
I don't want to discredit the "inventors" so much as ask, why is now (18 years later ) the time to be correcting the name, rather than 1993-4?

Judging by the fact that you are still in High School and that the list of names I posted obviously means nothing to you, your response means very little. If you ever aspire to take your drumming to the Drum Corps level in the future, these men will be your caption heads, your instructors, your mentors, and the guys who will ultimately give you the opportunity to march in the drum corps activity and expand your talant in ways you currently can not comprehend. If they tell you it is called "SLIVZ", you won't be arguing with them, I guarantee it...

And as Ralph Hardimon is currently Vic firth's most famous marching artist, If he says it's SLIVZ, be ready for the next edition of the book to have some updates...

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=47..._comment_tagged

Check out the conversation on facebook.

The conversation appears to be private. I'm sure its an interesting read though.
Paul, I'm sure you've heard the phrase "a rose by any other name..."
It seems to me that people knowing the correct history of the rudiment and calling them "book reports" would be far preferential than calling them "slives" and not knowing the history. I'll be sure to include it in the side note of that unit when I teach, though I think you'll be fighting an uphill battle when it comes to the name.
This to me seems a lot like the argument that calling tenors "quads" is incorrect, regardless of drums. They are what they are, and you can call them whatever you like, especially if you're in charge.
If the time comes that I need to adapt, I will.

I theorize that they were originally intended to be called "Slivz" but somewhere along the line "book reports" gained popularity and the name stuck. I could be wrong, just taking an educated guess.

It's a matter of respect to me. If Mr. Stivitts really was the first one to document exposing the hybrid as it's own entity then I believe he should be the one to name them.

And I personally don't find it arrogant that the small number of people referenced are trying to change all of our habits, because let's be honest, they've been doing it all along. In one way or another, these individuals have influenced things from the sticks and heads to the techniques we use when we play.

"2)they have been that way for what 15 years? I learned them as "book reports" in 1997."

You learned them from someone who learned them from someone who learned them wrong... That has been proven to be a fact.

"I don't want to discredit the "inventors" so much as ask, why is now (18 years later ) the time to be correcting the name, rather than 1993-4?"

Paul aged out of DCI in 1992 and went to UNT that Fall. He moved on to green, lush drumming pastures after that that were not DCI...

"And I personally don't find it arrogant that the small number of people referenced are trying to change all of our habits, because let's be honest, they've been doing it all along. In one way or another, these individuals have influenced things from the sticks and heads to the techniques we use when we play."

An excellent point. Again like I said, the men who have all come to agree that this is the truth are all the men running the activity right now... Mike Macintosh - Cavaliers, Mike Jackson - BlueCoats, Ralph Hardimon - No explanation required, Glen Crosby - Academy... I'm sure there will be many more as these were the guys that Paul marched with, was instructed by and is friends with. And people remember things but often get distracted... Such seems to be the case here...

One example to mimic this... Does anyone call it a flam-stutter anymore? Nope, it's a cheese... I unfortuately don't know who gave it that nickname but it eventually replaced the name I first heard it called... I'd expect this to follow the same course.

Oh and by the way, the person who named them "Book Reports" and spread the name around the activity has chimed in on the facebook thread and apologized to Paul for mis-naming something he acknowledged he learned from Paul. As he was on the snareline at Blue Knights in 1992 as well...

We all know exactly how it happened now that Paul decided to remind everyone of something we all already knew... So there is no conjecture as to how the "book reports" name came about, that has been identified thru this process as well...

Friend me or Paul on Facebook if you'd like to see the thread... It is truly epic...

Well if you study the history of rudiments, ie Mazurs book from 1978, etc and you discovered something that became one of the most influential r=hybrid rudiments of the last 18 years you'd fight for integrity too.

Just because I pursed a career playing drumset, doesnt allow some thoughtless prank with an awful title..."book reports" dude rudimental drumming isnt about doing school homework

you can call it whatever you want, just a history lesson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39eYm9toRes
more to come...

I'm down with calling them slivz. It's not like people are forcing anyone to call any rudiment anything. They're simply stating who the inventor was and paying credit to him by letting people know its "O.G." name.

I tend not to discuss hybrid rudiments with anyone, nor are they something I've practiced, but if book reports come up in a topic I will probably through in the word slivz.

Also I just added the word to my Firefox dictionary.

let's just call them muffins..because who doesn't like muffins?

Thanks for reading ! Currently Im working with Ralph Hardimon, Vic Firth, Mike Macintosh, Cavaliers, and a few other people to amend this. Were creating a documentary for the "Grid University" youtube channel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39eYm9toRes

We've confirmed that it is NOT in Mazurs rudimental bibledom from 1978, that has pretty much the entire grid written out...but I got to it a little differently.

Anyhow, thanks again

Paul Stivitts

yeah but what if you genetically sliced together the first rose ??
cheers
stiv

Because no one else has claimed them yet, two consecutive eighth notes, without any ornamentation, shall henceforth be known as "Chambanas".

Cool?


Everyone down? Doesn't matter if you have played two eighth notes before. No one else came up with a good name for them, so I am. Chambanas.

Happy gridding!

Slivz sound cool...I'm down!

Someone wants credit for something that wasn`t even his invention! All this pattern is, is a Flammed six stroke roll alternated! And you grid fanatics can start on any partial you like. This is originally a swiss rudiment gone through some form of sticking re-arrangment. And you want to take credit for it! You didn`t invent it and it is also not your idea. I call them alternated flammed six stroke rolls and you can get out your Anahiem Kingsmen slang Hip Hop lingo to call it anything you want. Oh, I always knew Ralph Haridmon by the name "Paradiddle Ralph" see if he remembers that one!

Oh, by the way I invented the backsticking through the fingers that Scott Johnson takes credit for these days, he calls it "The Spida". I showed it to him and he used it in his 1977 DCI solo. Along with a 12/8 section out of my own solo that he keeps on playing in his Lick of the Week series. Funny how people take credit for things that their own instructors have shown and given to them. I`m glad they no longer judge execution for drum lines or Johnson would have never gotten half of his fame, being a liar and a cheat. Good to see him in 4th this year in drums and that was high. Execution was always his problem, even Rob Carson would beat him easily in solo contests because he ticked. Sorry the world is a different place now, you seem to let mistakes fly by and not notice!

What in the hell?

My sentiments exactly.

Ha, I taught the BD`s in 1976&77. I was the snare tech and put 10 snares on the field who won DCI Drums. Rick Odello told me to help out two snare soloists in 1977, which I gave Johnson the backsticking and section from my solo and also wrote a solo for Terry Shalburg who was 2nd in snare that year. Terry used some of my ideas but wrote his own solo and also choked when he played rushing the ending and recieving a penalty for undertime. Johnson has been taking credit for my stuff for years and I just laugh at him now. Very original if you think about it. Just like the Hybrid pattern that got renamed because someone thought they invented it. I was using that very same concept of alternating flammed six stroke rolls when I won DCI snare in 1974. Ha! and you guys think this is original.

I beat Rob Carson and Ken Mazur in snare solos for the DCI snare titles in 1974&75. I was also there for the BD`s first DCI championship and drum title in 1976. Also Johnson was competing at the time and was well down the list. He would have been beat by Shalberg in 1977 if I hadn`t given him the stuff he needed to win.

While I acknowledge and respect your experience, I don't think you quite understand the goal of this website. This isn't a trophy hall, this is a place for rudimental drummers of all ages and backgrounds to share and absorb information. The information you've given throughout this thread, while in SOME ways informative, was more of an attack on individuals in an attempt to reclaim some lost glory. If you have an issue with someone "stealing the spotlight," I encourage you to seek them out in person, rather than attack them here where they are not likely to even read it.

Again, I'd love to hear the stories and drumming know-how you likely possess, but right now I'm being blinded by what seems to be a bitter grudge.

/vigilante off

-Zach

Hey Zach, no grudge intended and I do enjoy this site with the rudimental players and all experience levels. I think Chambana sums it up perfectly, infact I couldn`t stop laughing when I read that last night. It comes down to people taking credit for something that they maybe should just leave alone. I would just leave the bookreport a bookreport and let Johnson take credit for other peoples stuff like he has for many years. That is why I brought a couple of those things up, what difference does it make if you call it a slivz or bookreport or for that matter a flammed six stroke alternated. I don`t think anybody is collecting royalities on anything so who invented the Paradiddle. Probably some drummer in the American Revolution playing some patterns behind the tents to try to keep warm during the winter. The point is I was playing that pattern a lot earlier than they say it was discovered and just never broadcast the fact. Comes down to capital "I" and "MINE" rather than who cares we got another idea we can use for snare playing.

Why are we giving credit for this when it was discovered much earlier than was thought. Just leave it alone and everybody can play it and enjoy the hybrid. I bring up solo playing in response to the fact that we meaning Rob Carson and myself were playing many forms of hybrid rudiments before they invented the term itself. We never published our stuff so it has remained hidden from most for many years as well. We also were the first to incorperate speed drumming playing patterns faster than most would try. These were some of the tactics used to win solo contests at that time.

So in conclusion, read Shambanas post above and I`d have to agree 100%.

This thread is one of the reasons that I quit DLO -- Too many arrogant bastards. I said I'm still calling them book reports, and I'm not changing what I call them PERSONALLY, it's not like I'm teaching other people them, and people attack me for not changing my views about book reports. Or, as SCV75 accurately said, flammed six stroke rolls, because that's what they are. Only the beat is moved to the &.

Re-read what you originally posted before you start going on about people being arrogant. Unless it was just me that interpreted your post with a very strong arrogant vibe.

So, they're flam six-strokes, fine. Let's even the playing field though, and with that same logic, why don't we get rid of double and triple paradiddles. I can accurately say that they are just a standard paradiddle with 2/4 single strokes in front of them.

OK, this has little to do with this specific thread, maybe it does, I'll add it anyways:

Rudiments (PAS 40, Hybrids, etc.) are phrasing and sticking patterns commonly used in rudimental/drum line music, right?

These patterns can be applied to ANY rhythm, and accented and/or started in any order and/or from any place, right?

There are countless names, terms, and variations of these patterns as a result of the sticking, rhythmic, accent and phrasing possibilities, right?

If you encounter a double followed by a single followed by a flam followed by another double using a paradiddle sticking underneath it all, does it matter if it is named or rather if it is clean?

Paul has some amazing drumming history and has many big name guys on board with adjusting the story behind a pattern.

What does this mean?

Hopefully you can go home or to rehearsal, and have fun drumming!

I am thankful we have the time and energy to devote to our passion of aligning various strokes on various surfaces to make music!

NL

COOL! I figured a few would figure it out. This is a stick control concept by changing sticking patterns. Speed up both patterns and they sound identical. I could tell Mike McIntosh was aiming his sermon at me and know that he placed no higher than 10th at DCI Snare solos. I know he won PAS but that contest like DCA has been suspect for many years now.

I like the name "Book Reports" or better still Alternated Flammed Six Stroke Rolls. I was playing such things many years prior to the so called invention of 1992. I really don`t like the sound of "SLIVZ" so call them what you like and I will also. Paul was a good soloist and did take second at DCI Snare when in SCV. I have two tropheys at my house saying 1st Place Snare DCI so it makes little difference to me.

Relax kiddies. It's just band.

The Best

Umm, Mr. or Miss. "nosex"

Was there some thing useful or even intelligent you wanted to add about this subject or did you not read the rules concerning posting?

"Oh yes"? followed by numbers? what does this mean?

Maybe this will help you in the future, please read then read again....

http://www.drumlines.org/threads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/boardrules/v/1.html

I understand both points but it's in no way "arrogant" if you don't call it a "Sliv"
People have been calling them Book Reports for a LONG time and as long its univerally understood that Stivitts made the rudiement it shouldn't matter what it's called. Also, there's no sense in changing the name some 18 years later. Sorry if it just "brings back memories" to the guys but really?

Just keep in mind, it all boils down to this....




http://rudimentalteescom.bigcartel.com/product/flams-are-good-for-you

I think that maybe you do understand and maybe you don't, the underlying thing here is who invented the egg. There are members that disagree with them being called slivz because they had a name, "The Book Report". To say that you invented something is a bit arrogant. This is not a rudiment, it is a combination of some rudiments. Just because you rewrite the word "C A T" Italicized and in small caps and say, "I invented the word cat!" doesn't mean you invented the word "C A T", you just wrote the same word in a different way. There are some that say that this combination has been around for longer than the said time of "invention" and because you have respected members of the DCI world to say that the person was the first to play this does not make it so. I marched in the late '70's and early '80's and I can say that this combination was in a cadence that was written for the line I was in, but that's my word against theirs. Does that make me a liar just because you have legends that say Paul claims to be the first? Because I'm no legend I am not credible now? I even had the snare part to this cadence as my user picture and no one even noticed, but they will just say that it was written after the claim.

What has made this post a contention to ill feeling is that the people who challenged the claim were attacked by the ones that did not like that people didn't clap at the claim of the claim. So now you are having a war of opinion. The lesson here is that "Karma" has its own way of justice.

Frankly, this post should be locked because it does not do anything for us as members except to argue over this point. The only thing that this issue has done is to incite division, there are some that agree and some who disagree. It is fine to disagree, but not to make members quit because they were in disagreement. And for those who were attacked for their disagreeing opinion is not, in my view, what this site is about. Freedom of opinion and the hope of enlightenment is the mission I feel this site was founded on.

I say we all just agree to disagree and let it go, lock this thread, let those who read it form their own opinion and let it be. Those who disagree cannot prove their point any more than those who agree can prove theirs. And those who agree would not even care that it was around before the "claim of invention". We have become a camp divided when we should be as one, as a whole.

Smartest thing I've heard in this entire thread. Seriously guys. It's just notes on a page.

well put....

Anyone remember that movie "Summercamp Nightmare"?

Reading this thread was a ridiculous waste of time and I feel awful just adding to it. Flam-fives all the way. I invented the flam without the grace-note.
Are we serious here???
Back when I was active on this site, it was all education based with fun in the "Off-Topic" forum. It is disappointing to see a spectrum of generations of percussionists attempt to hold online pissing contests to gain notoriaty and therefore respect or "karma" from other users.
Share what you know.
Help students entering the activity.
Assist students struggling with aspects of the activity.
Keep it at that guys, eh?
This is a great thing here.

Hey! Wait a minute, I invented the 3 way backsticking. No really, but I didn`t think how popular it would become. I think everyone has tried it and funny how Scott Johnson takes credit for it. But the real story is I was snare tech for BD`s in 1977 and Rick Odello asked me to help Scott Johnson and Terry Shalberg on their solos for DCI. I gave Scott a section out of my 1975 solo and also showed him the backsticking. Both of these ideas have been used in his lick of the week videos. With Terry I wrote a solo but he had his own ideas and so he used a few ideas from it and didn`t actually play what I wrote. I also included the section from my solo for Terry as well.

The way to clear this up would to have Scott tell everyone who showed him the backsticking but he might even lie today about it since he thought he could do my job as a snare tech and the BD`s had very average snare lines with him before Tom Float took the job in 1982. They were 9th place in drums at DCI in 1981 and that was with Robbie Robinson marching with them. I bet Robbie felt real good about that with SCV winning DCI in 1981 and also his old line the Crossmen beating him in drums. Robinson was DCI snare champ in 1979 and 1980, but placed second in 1981 since I know Scott didn`t really help him because Robbie had beaten Scott at DCI in 1979. Also a factor in the BD`s losing drums was the writing of Terry Shalberg, Robbie even made the comment that "Terry can`t write".

So in conclusion. I`m glad everyone likes the backsticking through the fingers and it is a nice visual to use, but you don`t see me using the captial"I" and "MINE" other than I don`t like the idea of Johnson taking credit for it. That is why this post has created so many opinions.

I also have an 8 stoke roll that is not listed in the Hybrids, it is essentially a tap seven and the release is the last note , then repeated off the left hand so it is an alternated rudiment. Should be written as all 32nds with the attack and release accented. RllrrllR, LrrllrrL. Capitals are accents.

Now after you get that down add the flam to the first stroke of the pattern. Flammed 8 stoke roll!